I don't mind dancing open embrace. I don't even mind being led nuevo moves if there's room on the floor (despite my boleo-bashing rants I occasionally post.) There are a few leaders I dance with on a regular basis that dance only open embrace and I enjoy dancing with them.
What I do mind is being told that I enjoy close embrace/estilo milonguero/apilado because:
1.) it's easier than open embrace/nuevo,
2.) I don't have to be on the music (wtf?)
3.) I don't have to support my own weight,
4.) or maintain my balance/axis,
5.) because I'm (with the rest of apilado dancers in particular) lazy. (double wtf??)
I also don't agree that I should like open embrace/nuevo because it "exposes all your mistakes and makes you a better dancer."
PS - I did try to come up with a classier title than "Insert Rude Gesture" but since the first working title was "Bite Me", I figured that was improvement enough.
Hilarious! I've had this conversation too. And I think you should have kept the original title :-)
I find almost unbelievable some of the horror stories I hear about leaders. And the comments they make. But I suspect they're all true.
been there- heard that- sometimes to my face...
If people took the time to understand the technical differences between open and TRUE close embrace (not sort-of-close-standing-next-to each-other-close that I generally treat like open in posture styling), then we'd all be a lot happier and more understanding of each other that there are different muscles being trained in each case, with their own set of problems and needs.
I respect and enjoy open. It's a different set of posture skills for me than close.
I enjoy close. It's a different set of posture skills than open.
Grounding and using the core remains the same in both. Weight placement is different.
End of story.
I think if people would just get a little more training and understand that open embrace and close embrace (the real close embrace not the almost-closed-but-not-quite-closed that I tend to treat as a close open) use different posture skills then we would all be much happier and more understanding of each other.
I like and respect open embrace. It uses a different set of posture skill than close embrace.
I like close embrace. It uses a differnt set of posture techniques than open.
People should learn and understand both.
End of story.
oh the joy of the double/lost post!
For what it's worth, it's easier to learn open "hold" (because it damn sure isn't an embrace) than close, apilado, milonguero, or whatever you want to call it. If one learns close first, there are fewer problems moving to dancing open.
However, the opposite isn't true. Moving to milonguero style after learning, let's say nuevo, is really really difficult for most people.
Especially "anglo-saxons" have issues with moving so physically close to those of the opposite sex who aren't lovers.
It sounds harsh, but it's true.
So viva those who can dance well and comfortably heart-to-heart with a stranger.
I dance both open and close. Many good instructors will tell you if you dance enough open, you should try close and vise versa. Yet for those people who dance too much "close embrace US style" or apilado do have more problems dancing open later on since their cores are weaker and their axises are tilted. On the other hand, many neuvo dancers in this country dancing their own version of tango have the same problems as well. Their movements just amplify the flaws more.
Mari, I had too much to say to your fine rant! So I wrote my own reflection called "Insert...uh.." no, I forget now. Oh, yeah: "When Simple is Complex" -- all about the embrace.
Thanks for the inspiration.
Holy cannoli! I had no idea I would get so many responses! I'm still answering emails and I've gotten pretty far behind on my comment responses.
First, just about everyone has said I should have kept the original title lol. It certainly would have been more succinct. ;)
Johanna, Withersr, and Bastet - most of the emails I've gotten have said the same thing. We've all heard these remarks and it's especially astonishing when someone, like your dance partner for instance, says stuff like that to your face. That was the last straw for me Tuesday night - and what inspired the post. It's one thing to make generalizations like that on a forum - it's another thing to say it to me in person.
Tangocherie - you're right on the money as always, getting straight to the heart of the matter.
Mark - I loved your post and will be forwarding it tons.
You should have a care when you say that close embrace dancers have weak cores and their axis are tilted.
Done correctly, you should be using your core just as much as in open.
In terms of posture- close is different than open. The weight placement forward is not wrong for true CLOSE embrace (not the standing-next-to-each-other-close that is NOT milonguero close) but it is not right for open and one or the other partner needs to adjust.
Try to understand, rather than judge.
I'm with Cherie on this one. When I started, it was large, but only because I didn't know better. It went a bit pear-shaped at my first milonga away from my teacher and I had real problems dancing salon. But I saw the light and changed my teacher. After dancing salon style for awhile (close hold) I was able to dance large again with the younger crowd. I don't have a problem switching, but I prefer not to. The funny thing is after I left my first teacher, a year or two later, others left and had the same problem I did, and they were with him for a few years!
In any case, I think these guys are talking out of their backsides. Jeeze!The stuff we have to put up with sometimes!
haha... Let me chime in here: YTF one wants to open when one finds the beauty of close. Ignorance IS bliss. There I've said it.
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